Oh lordy, time for a rant...

[rurounihime]

Yes, I'm a slow ass. No, I haven't finished Deathly Hallows.

But I just HAD to comment on something that I have read so far.

If there is anyone left who is as slow as me at finishing this book, HERE BE YOUR SPOILER ALERT.

Remus: All hail Harry Potter, godfather to my child! Squeeeee and Tonks-squeeeee!

That makes a lot of sense.

'Cause... why?

*frowns*

I am a citizen of the USA. Maybe godparenthood means something different in the UK. But here, among the other bits about closeness and friendship with the birth parents, it also implies that, should anything happen to the birth parents, the godparent(s) will step in and take the child in, provide a home, an education, safety, support, and general rearing as the birth parents intended to raise their child. And seeing as there is a Wizarding war in full swing, such a situation is a lot more likely for Remus and Tonks than it would be during times of peace.

Is there not a distinct problem with this?

I feel like I am being forced to acknowledge Harry's maturity yet again. Hey, I think he's matured. You've sold me, JK, I buy it, I believe it, I revel in it because he is finally coming into his own. I think he is a capable, powerful, iconic leader with the intelligence and ability to save the wizarding world.

Do I think Harry can raise a war-orphaned child? No, I do not. Harry is a boy, regardless of how mature he is proving to be, and he not only has no actual home to speak of, but no means of providing for said child should the need arise, which it stands a fair chance of doing in the current life and times of British wizardom. Rowling forbid Remus or Tonks should die. I don't want that, you don't want that (I wager), and none of those other people in the book want that. Except Voldemort (whoops, broke my wards) and Bellatrix.

Do I think that Harry would end up being the sole provider for the child? No. Andromeda is there, as are the Weasleys, Kingsley Shacklebolt and friends, and of course, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville and Ginny, should things REALLY come right down to the bare essentials. I have no doubt Harry would have plenty of help. But come on. A godfather? Let's all celebrate the most transparent display of "all hail Harry, the new and improved GROWN-UP Boy Who Lived, who is now following in his own godfather's footsteps, oh, weep-with-joy!" that the series has offered thus far.

I feel blatantly manipulated. And anyone who knows me knows that I loathe blatant author manipulation more than almost anything else when I read.

I also feel like common sense has picked up and gone on holiday. And the absence of common sense takes a very close second.

Sirius may not have been the most attentive and appropriate godfather, but he definitely had the means to feed and clothe Harry (barring the stint in Azkaban, which I don't think any of us could control), and he MOST CERTAINLY had the means when James and Lily first named him godfather. Harry has no way of giving this child a life. He barely has the wherewithal to give himself any sort of life.

The smart thing to do would have been to appoint the Weasleys as godparents. Yes, it's war, and yes, our favourite redheads are in dire straits, not working and all. But they are far more equipped than the current godfather is, on a mental level at the very least. Instead, we have another thing placed on the shoulders of a kid-- A KID-- who already has enough on his plate. It feels very foolish to me, an empty gesture meant to show appreciation when "I'm sorry I went all WONKY in the BASEMENT of your HOUSE" just won't cover it. Like, oh, Harry was right and I was wrong, let me give him my child's well-being to make amends.

What really bugs me is that everyone else was totally thrilled about it. I would have expected Hermione and Bill, at the very least, to frown worriedly and say, "Thanks for the show of faith, but I think maybe it would be better for everyone if..."

Next thing you know, Tonks will be appointing Ginny godmother extraordinaire because as everyone knows, she and Harry are a match made in the stars. I mean, come on, how can any of us argue with that? Everyone in the books has had SIXTEEN WHOLE YEARS to figure it out. That's, like, forever. That's, like, duh. *pukes*

I tell you. First Tonks goes bonkers. Now Remus is starting with the Stoopid. It's a sign: there is conspiracy afoot! Their child is the harbinger of dooooooom! Watch out, Voldemort!

*rolls whole head because eyes are just not enough*

ETA: Well, it seems my "godparents as legal guardians" issue is not a widely practiced thing among my f-list. *laughs* Alas! So this observation and concern comes from my own personal background. Still, I hold to a lot of what I said about Harry being emotionally unprepared for such a role. And I still feel manipulated. *sigh*

Comments

[copperbeech.livejournal.com]

=)

Well, but you are forgetting the epi-Epilogue, in which Harry finally does marry Draco, who remains loaded and can care for Harry and his ill-literarily gained progeny. No seriously.

Teddy Ruxpin. I read that somewhere and about freaking ROLLED.

[cyn-ful.livejournal.com]

I have to agree totally. The way that Harry has always treated Lupin, only going to him when it was the last possible source. Why would Lupin feel that close to Harry? Granted that whole Lupin/Tonks thing still gets to me.

[shikishi.livejournal.com]

I think I viewed it differently, mainly because of my job. The whole god parent hoopla is only that unless all the legalities and paperwork and wills are also done. Teddy is going to Andromeda should anything happen, because of kinship laws. which I am not sure the UK has.

So basically I saw it as Lupin honoring the son and remaining survivor of his two best mates.

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

I agree. I had similar thoughts. I also agree, and more virulently, on hating the blatant manipulation. And if you read the way I do... well... I think I won't say anything else. :P

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that Harry is much more likely to be killed in the war than anyone else. He is the one who has to go up against Voldie, right? I can understand Remus' reasoning for naming Harry the godfather, namely that he is most lilely one of his only friends, that Harry's father was his best friend, that Harry was who told him off when he wanted to leave his family because he was a werewolf (should have thought of that sooner) so he might feel gratitude for that. But what about Tonks? I bet she wanted Kingsley or McGonagall.

[le-negronomicon.livejournal.com]

i still say Remus did it because he was in love with Sirius... and this is his round-about way of cementing that love.

but seriously, i think the thinking is something along the lines of: "he's closest thing to family Remus has, outside of that which he married"... and he knows Harry's still rich beyond measure, certainly richer than Sirius was...

and, if Sirius was able -- in all his fugitiveness -- to not only KEEP his money, but ACCESS his money, and then PASS ON his assets via a will (and not a dime to Remus?? maybe i take back the Remus/Sirius, after all)... well, Remus knows that no matter what, Harry will always have the Weasleys to help -- should they survive -- and not to forget Hermione -- should she survive.

people make bad decisions all the time

it's a rarity -- really, and truly a rarity -- that a godparent actually gets custody of a child just by being named 'godparent'.

it doesn't hold up in court

it has little weight

it takes a massive wipe-out of mega (and suspicious) proportions to actually have a child be put in the custody of a godparent... at least, in the US. it's a symbolic gesture, at best.

and, really... that's all this is. this is remus' life -- full-circle. who else would his child go to?

now, that's the let's-explain-it-as-tho-these-were-real-people bit.

the let's-explain-it-as-a-writer-using-a-plot-device explanation is that Rowling wanted the 'awwww' effect of making that sort of full-circle connection. and that's really what she's trying to do: closing the circle.

so, yes, she's manipulating you -- it's hard to write without doing that. but i don't think it's for the same reason that you picked up. it's not to show that harry is suddenly responsible, it's to make you teary-eyed and/or giddy in that sort of "the next generation, tied to the first" sort of way.

[le-negronomicon.livejournal.com]

iawtc

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

HA!

*looks forward to all the fic*

My friend had a Teddy Ruxpin bear when she was younger...

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

My personal opinion is that he's having a difficult time separating Harry from James and Sirius. The funny thing is, it was always Sirius who had difficulty with that, while Lupin was the voice of acceptance for what is versus what was, as well as very clear who Harry was. In a lot of ways, I feel Lupin's character has been quite altered in this last book. Makes me sad. He's one of my favorites. It would be neat if JK really DID go that route and show his confusion with friend-versus-friend's-son, but I don't hold out much hope as I near the end of the book. I think she's trying to tie up loose ends that don't necessarily need to be tied up.

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I guess the whole effort just seems so pointless to me. Sure, it's a feel-good moment. But it makes no sense. Lupin, of all people, should be able to appreciate just how precious what's left of Harry's childhood is to him. He has so little of it as it is. He just doesn't even come to mind as a godparent candidate for me at all.

I hold that Lupin is pulling a Sirius and mixing up his friends with his friends' children. I think he's still in mourning, and he's trying to compensate. Alas, I think it could have been delivered more effectively, if that is the case.

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

Gaw, yes. I don't mind being manipulated. As a writer, I take part in plenty of manipulation myself. It's unavoidable; it's the base rock of story-telling anyway. But I get VERY ticked off when I can plainly see a writer trying to force my emotions into a certain direction. They have to earn it, and that takes skill and patience. You don't just automatically get to push people's brains around. That's why it's so sad that we have so many poor writers who are published.

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

Excellent point. Harry has enough to deal with on his own, not the least of which being his own survival. It's a nice, romantic thought. But impractical.

Harry did play a major part in getting Remus to return, that's for sure. And I laud Harry's maturity in that instance. But he's still a kid. Let him BE a kid, for as long as he has left. Everyone else is already stealing his childhood from him by the truckload.

McGonagall would have been a good, solid choice, yes. Alas, everyone on this list is also on Voldemort's hit-list most of the time... So there's only so many arguments I can make in favor of safety for the kid. I just don't see Harry as a good candidate, not through any failing of him own, but because he is still so young. He's not James.

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

Erg, HIS own. Not "him own."

Dang. Tired...

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

Oh, I am absolutely a Sirius/Remus shipper. In fact, I think part of Remus' emotional issues in DH are due to the fact that he hasn't grieved yet. He is the last of his friends. They're all gone. He's it. And I think he's having trouble letting go, which is completely understandable.

Harry is indeed rich. And one day, he'd be a wonderful godfather. But at this point, I feel he's not mature enough for the responsibility that comes with being a godparent, and I am happy to put aside the possible legal rammifications for this: There's an emotional, mental duty that comes with being a godparent as well. There is an element of helping to raise the child even with the birth parents still around. I think it is unfair of Remus and Tonks to put Harry in this position right now. I also think you are right: Remus is reaching out to the only "family" he has left, and that is Harry. But I am getting a real sense of deja vu, in that Remus is seeing James where Harry is standing, just as Sirius did. Harry is not James, and I feel Remus is having trouble distinguishing. He never did before, at least not obviously, which is another reason I'm shying away from this development...

it doesn't hold up in court

I suppose I come from a unique position, then, of having my selected godparents be the people who WERE legally allowed to take me if something had happened. So I see the role in a different light, I suppose. It just always held a certain level of tactile responsibility for me. A big deal.

I don't mind a little manipulation. Heh, I write as well. It's part and parcel. The foundation of story-telling has always been the ability to grip your listener, to make them feel the story and be the characters. Manipulation at its finest. What I detest is the obvious way it is often done. No subtlety, no earning that emotional tumble. Many writers just expect to get it, as if they are entitled just because they write.

I'm glad you didn't feel manipulated when you read DH; it always takes the fun out of things, doesn't it? But I'm afraid I have felt openly manipulated by JK Rowling before, namely in HBP, and I haven't grown to like it in the interim. I feel she is trying to tie up loose ends that don't necessarily need to be tied up, and that frustrates me because I admire the series so much. I guess I don't feel that the plot needs to come full circle so obviously. It's too "in your face" for me. I could see Remus offering... well, an IOU, to be blunt: "when you are older, Harry, I would like you to consider being Teddy's godfather." I think that would have had the same effect.

[(Anonymous)]

It's an honor and a symbolic gesture, not a binding parental guardian role. Lots of quite young people become godparents (especially when their older siblings have children). Sirius only saw it that way because he was the only one left for Harry besides Petunia. Lupin cares about Harry (and values him through the James connection), and Harry's the one who knocked some sense into him so he actually stayed with his family. I'm sure he was grateful in retrospect.

It wasn't really all that manipulative. Harry was the natural choice. Anyone else would have been flatout weird.

Clio

[snottygrrl.livejournal.com]

well, traditionally, the godparent was to help with the spiritual growth of the child. according to wikipedia, the modern meaning is an individual chosen by the parents to take a vested interest in raising a more complete human being. However, godparent is not a legal position, and should the parents seriously intend the godparents to act as foster parents in case of their death, this must be legally specified through the usual means (such as a will).

my brother had godparents, i didn't. his godparents never did anything but send him bday cards (we saw them when we ere little and my mum still sees them at times but i haven't for yrs and neither has my bro).

so when i read that i felt like remus considered harry the only 'family' he has left and thus felt like harry should be a part of his son's life in a meaningful way. though it did have a somewhat creepy i-can't-make-any-of-my-buddies-gparents-cause-they're-all-dead-(or-Ev!L)-so-you'll-do kind of a feel to it as well.

though truth be told i found the entire tonks/remus(harry) thread v. v. odd. and came to figure out that canon!remus is actually a bit of a twat.

No spoilers, I promise

[cyn-ful.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you. I feel that she took an amazing character, two really (Tonks) and after their initial loving this character in their first book, quickly became a what have you done to them? What type of spell are they under.

Lupin does seem to be showing the characteristics that Sirius did, but what is his reasoning. Sirius could do it because of Azkaban - 12 years of being tormented. Lupin on the other hand survived on the outside and got to know Harry really well during his third year. He can't be confusing the two. I assume it is more from This is James' son and so he needs to be the godfather. Either way, I have to agree...I just didn't like it. The way he keeps popping in, I don't trust it one bit.

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

heh, that totally didn't register with me, but then i don't think being godparents has any meaning aside from a sentimental one, so i just saw it as a gesture, but not remus seriously considering harry would raise his child should something happen to it.

FINISH THAT BOOK, WOMAN!!!! *glares*

[le-negronomicon.livejournal.com]

I suppose I come from a unique position, then, of having my selected godparents be the people who WERE legally allowed to take me if something had happened. So I see the role in a different light, I suppose. It just always held a certain level of tactile responsibility for me. A big deal.

in your case, were their legal documents created to ensure that your godparents were the ones to take you in such a case? yeah, the role is very important -- and beyond merely symbolic -- for a lot of people, but they have to take the steps to make that legally binding. i doubt, with enemy #1 as the godfather, they'd have that option...

but really, who knows with Rowling's system... her legal system probably works on the same system as her magical one: convenience.

I don't mind a little manipulation. ... Manipulation at its finest. What I detest is the obvious way it is often done. No subtlety, no earning that emotional tumble.

well, i wonder, and do not take this the wrong way, but i wonder how much of this stems from your personal history with the god-parenting issue?

I'm glad you didn't feel manipulated when you read DH; it always takes the fun out of things, doesn't it?

oh i felt manipulated... just not with that part, unfortunately.

But I'm afraid I have felt openly manipulated by JK Rowling before, namely in HBP, and I haven't grown to like it in the interim. I feel she is trying to tie up loose ends that don't necessarily need to be tied up, and that frustrates me because I admire the series so much. I guess I don't feel that the plot needs to come full circle so obviously. It's too "in your face" for me.

yeah, i agree -- not with liking HBP (i did, alot) but definitely with the otehr stuff. i don't buy into her self-induced legend of "i knew how the story was going to end"... because she sure didn't write the series like she did... in fact, it's not until GoF that I gather she knew anything at all about how she was going to answer the question: why now is all this important. basically, it took 10 years for her to answer that question that any other first-time writer would have to answer up front. maybe a vast amount of story was cut by editors who thought it too much for a first-time author of a series that may or may not do well... very possible, especially seeing as editing grew lax as the series grew popular. pre-orders were a historic levels even before she was finished writing it and certainly before they were finished editing it. why edit a book intently that people are buying in bucket-loads in pre-orders alone???

i feel the same way you do in your last statement. and a heavy editing hand -- within and without -- from GoF onward would have helped the series bucketloads, including with limiting the last-minute 'oh, this is important' stuff we were getting from the last three books.

i know she wanted a cut it off at 7 (for the magical purposes) but really... she should have gone to nine, an equally mystic number in some cultures. but i know the "7 horcruxes were basically in the 7 books" thing would be cast aside, but that gimmick can be well dropped in lieu of crisper, less manipulative stories.

edit. re-submitted for formating issues, sorry.

Re: No spoilers, I promise

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

My first reaction to Remus' freak out session in Grimmauld was along these lines: "Wait, wait, wait... Imperius? Someone using him to get in?" It was that weird to me. *laughs* I was half waiting for the other shoe to drop and Death Eaters to come storming in to grab them all. Kept muttering, "What's his motivation? What's his motivation??" ^__^

Having heard from a lot of other people who don't consider the role of godparents as inclusive as I do, I have to revise the overall meaning of Lupin's decision. But on a personal level, it's still a departure from Lupin's character (this entire book is, I feel, and not always in a bad way, for sure, but sometimes...) and unfair to Harry. Maybe it was meant to give hope. But he seems to have a ton on his plate as it is. It just had this feeling of being thrown in there "because that's cool" to me.

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to see that I'm in the minority as far as my interpretation of godparenting roles goes. *laughs* Oh well. It still struck a weird chord with me. If not for that, I probably would have rolled my eyes anyway at the sap potential. It had the feel of "sunlight and daisies" to me.

Heh, and I don't think Remus is considering all that much of anything in this book. *giggles* Alas! Poor Remus. He's too confuddled about everything...

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

It's been brought to my attention that my legal relationship with my godparents is somewhat unique among my f-list. ^__^ My godparents happen to be the ones I would have legally gone with if something had happened. I should have thought of my sister's godmother, who would gladly take her, but is not the person recognized to do so legally.

And I agree with you about Remus and Tonks and Harry. Very forced. Almost thrown in as an afterthought, in my opinion. It didn't make a lot of sense to me from the beginning. And I think it would have, if she'd been able to give it more development and attention. Makes me wonder exactly how much cutting power her editors and publishers had...

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

I guess my interpretation of the godparent role is somewhat different from that of a lot of people who are reading this. I think that's going to color my feelings on the issue no matter what.

I think Remus is sort of off his rocker a bit in this book in general. It just felt... a little bit convenient to me. Like a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants decision because he was in a good mood. I wonder who Tonks would have chosen as godparents...

It wasn't really all that manipulative. Harry was the natural choice. Anyone else would have been flatout weird.

I'm glad you didn't feel manipulated. Must have made reading it nicer. I personally felt manipulated. As if I were shoved into the joyousness of everything without my consent. I'm having trouble with the final two books in general because it feels like Rowling has tried to tie up every loose end she can find, and that's really not necessary, even if the books are ending. I don't personally feel that Harry is a good candidate for godparent at this point in his life. He's got a ton of stuff to think about right now as it is. It feels way too cleanly dealt with to me. I felt that was unnecessary.

Thank you for commenting!

[rurounihime.livejournal.com]

were their legal documents created to ensure that your godparents were the ones to take you in such a case?

Yeah, which I am beginning to see is not necessarily the norm. *laughs* Oh well...

her legal system probably works on the same system as her magical one: convenience.

I think we think along the same lines. The last few books (the last two, especially) have been inundated with convenience. It's depressing because it's not necessary at all. It just feels... rushed.

i wonder how much of this stems from your personal history with the god-parenting issue?

My reaction to Harry as godfather? Oh yes. Oh yes. I am not even going to try to deny it, and having seen that I'm in the minority, it's foolish to do so. I'm definitely taking from my own experience. As for the manipulative aspect, maybe this colored it a little, but the truth of the matter is that I have felt manipulated since book 6 for various reasons, and not in the more subtle ways the first four books did it. I still feel it was overly convenient, and loose-end-tying, and a little like sap. I don't mind good feelings in wartime. I just don't like feeling like I haven't gotten there myself. And she's gotten me there plenty of other times, what with Ron and Hermione. This just felt different to me.

i don't buy into her self-induced legend of "i knew how the story was going to end"

I wager she had a general idea, and a pretty firm overarcing plot the whole way through. But I agree: things have a habit of getting in the way of that as you write, and adjustments have to be made. I'm betting she came up against things she hadn't counted on or prepared for. She had the Horcrux idea from the beginning, apparently: book 2 was originally supposed to have included a lot of what finally went into book 6, or so I read in an interview with Rowling. But I'm willing to bet that a lot of stuff popped up that she didn't quite know how to deal with. And maybe she forced her plot to conform even with all the extra, and that's why it feels weird as the series ends. I don't know.

It really is a statement about the publishing and editing industries that such laxness would occur, isn't it? I think standards have gone way down. It scares me how much power must be taken from the author. Either that or a lot of authors don't really care, which is also sad. I would love to publish something of mine one day, and I know if I had the opportunity, I would fight tooth and nail to get that thing clean before it went out... But I don't know if that's possible anymore.

I totally agree with everything you've said in your last three paragraphs, basically. ^__^ I would not have minded waiting for the books if it meant she had a chance to work through them one more time and rethink a few things. Cut a few things, expand on a few things... The entire experience would be more fulfilling, I think.

[prettyhairs.livejournal.com]

I had the same doubts about the legal guardian thing but JK...

Well read on;)